Active Stress Management for Daily Life with Jillian Bybee

Listen on Apple Podcasts / Listen on Spotify

Summary

What does it mean to actively manage stress in our day-to-day life? What does it look like? Today, I’m joined by full-time physician Jillian Bybee, a pediatric critical care medicine physician and coach. She’ll share her journey of burnout and recovery and a mindset shift she had on being an active participant in one's life and practicing active stress management. We’ll touch on mindfulness and meditation as tools, the need to slow down and observe thoughts without reacting to them, the challenges faced by high achievers, and the misconception that passion prevents burnout. Get ready for a massive dose of understanding from a woman who can relate, packed with tons of physician-recommended tools for stress management in your day-to-day life!

For show notes, head to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠coachellyn.com/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and, of course, follow me on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠OR check out my ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more!

Keywords

burnout, recovery, active stress management, mindfulness, meditation, self-awareness, slowing down, high achievers, active stress management, mindfulness, breathing techniques, movement, boundaries, self-care

Some Takeaways

• Wellness is not a state of being, it's a state of action.

• Being an active participant in one's life is crucial for managing burnout.

• Practicing active stress management involves turning down the volume on the stress response and tuning into the present moment.

• Slowing down and observing thoughts without reacting to them can help manage stress and prevent burnout.

• Passion does not prevent burnout; high achievers need to be mindful of their tendencies to take on too much.

• Self-awareness is key in identifying stressors and finding ways to take care of oneself amidst busy schedules. Mindfulness and self-awareness are key in managing stress.

• Breathing techniques, such as lengthening the exhale, can activate the parasympathetic nervous system and promote relaxation.

• Movement, even in small ways, can have a positive impact on stress levels.

• Setting boundaries and prioritizing self-care are essential for managing stress in high-pressure work environments.

• Incorporating active stress management strategies into daily life can lead to improved well-being and reduced stress.

Sound Bites

"Wellness is not a state of being, it's a state of action."

"I was trying so hard to keep the bad things at bay that I wasn't letting in the good things."

"Meditation has never taught me to still my mind. What meditation taught me is that I don't have to react to every single thought I'm having."

"Learning to take those thoughts less seriously and asking yourself, 'Is this really helpful?'"

"Anytime that you're intentionally lengthening your exhale, you're activating that nerve, you're turning down the volume."

"Moving your body can be more accessible than traditional exercise and still provide benefits."

About Jillian Bybee, MD

Jillian is a full-time physician and educator in a hospital system. But, her passion project is ‘Humans Leading’ a podcast and newsletter which are building the foundation for her upcoming coaching business. She serves growth-oriented high achievers in the healthcare and business realms who are looking to redefine success for themselves in order to find more joy and fulfillment.

Website | https://jillianbybeemd.com/ IG | @lifeandpicu
Podcast | Substack | BuzzSprout LinkedIn | Jillian Bybee, MD

Do you have anything to add?
Drop a comment below…

RELATED POSTS:

TRANSCRIPT:

Ellyn Schinke (00:01.288)

Hello, Jillian, and welcome to the Burnout Proof Podcast. I'm so excited to have you here.

Jillian Bybee (00:05.482)

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Ellyn Schinke (00:08.66)

We are going to be spending a lot of time together this week as we record these podcasts, but I'm very, very pumped for it. Tell us, let's just start very, very high level. Who are you? How did you get to doing the work that you did? We were just bonding about the fact that we do the work that we need. How'd you end up here?

Jillian Bybee (00:26.515)

So I'm Jillian Bybee. I am a pediatric critical care medicine physician, which means I trained for a really long time and do a lot of really intense work in the hospital taking care of really sick children. I'm also a leader, a medical educator, and then most recently I've become a coach. And I got here because when I was training to do the physician job, I burnt out and I experienced depression and...

A lot of people around me didn't really know how to help me get back from that. And so I found myself a therapist and I found myself some supportive people. And I basically spent the last nine years or so getting back from that. And now I teach other people to do it too, because I still find that even though we talk about this, we don't have the resources out there. And I know that's how you got into this work too, is your own personal experience.

Ellyn Schinke (01:17.68)

Yeah. And I feel like it is, it's about putting the resources out there, but I think it's also about recognizing, I feel like anybody who does this work because they experience this is very probably guilty of the fact that they can very easily put themselves back into positions where they are.

chronically stressing themselves out or they are burning themselves out. I feel like we probably know more than anybody how susceptible we are about doing the very things that we know we like. How easy it is to fall out of the habits and the practices. I'm really, really excited to hear about what some of those things are for you. Before we dive into that though, what was it like getting out of that for you? You said that you had support networks. You worked with a therapist.

Jillian Bybee (01:42.231)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (02:01.532)

What did that transition look like? Like whether it's a timeline or like some of the practices and habits that you engaged in, was there support around you in your field? Like I'd love to hear a little bit more about like what that looks like to get out of feeling that way.

Jillian Bybee (02:16.694)

Sure. So when I first experienced burnout, and I say first, because I've had it twice now getting back to your previous point about how we can easily get back to that same place, people weren't talking about burnout. It was like 2015 and it wasn't cool in the medical literature to talk about physician burnout or other people burnout. And so I think it's only later that I realized what that was. But you don't get there overnight.

Ellyn Schinke (02:23.624)

Yep.

Jillian Bybee (02:43.922)

And so the process of getting out of it is also not overnight. Um, the nice thing for me is that I was sort of winding down part of my training in 2016, taking on a little bit lighter of a clinical load and lighter of the year in 2017. Um, and so I got to recover and go to therapy and really be a human being. Um, in my job for people who don't know, sometimes in training, you work up to a hundred hours a week.

And I will tell you that none of the things that I now teach about make you not experience exhaustion because you're doing them when you're working 100 hours a week. Like that would be a ridiculous sales claim. I will say that as a person who still sometimes works 80 hours a week and works 32 hours of overnights in a weekend.

Ellyn Schinke (03:26.621)

Hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (03:32.231)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (03:37.198)

The fact that I do these things that I now teach other people keeps me from getting to that burnout spot. And for me that's good enough and I'm so happy that helps. You asked a little bit about support. I think I had supportive people around me, but I had a lot of people who didn't know what to do. They were happy to let me go to appointments and to do things outside of medicine. But really the reason I have the

Ellyn Schinke (03:57.446)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (04:05.918)

leadership roles I now have is so I can be the person that I needed when I was in that phase. Because I think some people still don't know how to help other people.

Ellyn Schinke (04:17.048)

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You said so many things as you were talking about that I think are so important that I want to pull out and reiterate the fact that you're still like, if you are still working a lot, you're still gonna feel that tiredness. You're still gonna feel that exhaustion. But I also really like that you highlighted because I think this is important. Sometimes I feel some guilt in the work that I do because I feel like I work too much to be a burnout coach.

But I really like what you pointed out in the sense that I still have, I'm in a season of, I call it a season of sacrifice right now. I am in like the month of April has been a lot and it is in a lot of ways self-imposed because I'm now full-time in my business and I'm doing it to myself. And part of me feels like, well, I shouldn't be working this much if I'm going to be a burnout coach. But I think

Jillian Bybee (04:55.211)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (05:09.084)

That's not necessarily what it's about. Yeah, obviously we want that lifestyle where we're gonna rest and we're gonna take time off. But I think it's about finding ways to take care of yourself when your life is requiring a lot from you. Because sometimes like work does not stop, life does not stop. Those things that we have that are responsibilities and commitments or just things that we care about in general, they don't stop just because we've gotten ourselves to a place of burnout.

or of just intense stress. And I think it's about being able to find ways that pour into you that don't require the rest of your life to stop around you, because that's never gonna happen. That's like not practical. I love that you highlighted that, absolutely.

Jillian Bybee (05:54.582)

Yeah, you're bringing up such an important point. And I think there's some key things that you said in there, which is, you know, this is a busy time for you. I think what happens to a lot of us is we are not active participants in our life. And so that is why I named the thing that I do active stress management is because it's a reminder to me that when I was burnt out.

I was not actively controlling my life. I felt like it was controlling me or maybe I was just existing in it. And I needed a reminder that was like, no, this is in fact your life. Like you get to drive it and the busy season that you're describing, I'm also going through and I chose it. But I also get to choose, you know, I'll be pivoting my career a little bit as I take on more and I get to choose what that looks like.

Ellyn Schinke (06:31.294)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (06:37.222)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (06:47.462)

no one gets to choose it for me and I don't have to allow it to happen to me. I think the active part and the control is really, especially for people who are experiencing burnout, like we both have, that's the part that you lose. And sometimes you don't feel like it's your life anymore.

Ellyn Schinke (06:48.046)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (06:52.34)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (07:00.551)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (07:05.136)

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that you said we're not always active participants in our life. Because yeah, when I think back to, and actually I was thinking of this as you were telling your story, we had a very similar timeline in terms of when we experienced burnout. It was like honestly the same year for me. It lasted for a while, but it was that same timeframe that I was experiencing burnout when I was in graduate school as well. And I think, oh gosh, what was I gonna say? I don't edit my podcasts a lot, so I'm like, thought, please come back.

We were on the same timeline, but yeah, I think that's what I wasn't doing is I was just kind of very passively going from one thing to the next, to the next, to the next and letting my calendar dictate things and letting my social life dictate things and letting these commitments and obligations that I had for my graduate program dictate things. I think that is what, there have been two things that have been the longest running in my coaching and I've been coaching this in some capacity for about 10 years now.

five of which I've been in business. And I think the two things that have stood the test of time in my business have been realizing how friggin' crucial self-awareness is in this process. Like it doesn't matter where you're at in your burnout journey. It doesn't matter what you're doing for your profession or what industry you're in. If you don't have self-awareness around the things that are both helping you manage your stress and your burnout and the things that are causing stress in your burnout, you're on a losing path. Like it's not.

It's not going to get better if you don't have that self-awareness. Yeah, I think that's been crucial in my journey and in what I've been experiencing as well, is just being able to look at my life and figure out, nope, this isn't working. I made this choice. Do you feel like, I'm curious to hear your perspective on this, do you feel like if you choose something, it burns you out less?

Jillian Bybee (08:52.11)

Not necessarily. I think for me, there is, it gets back to that overwork thing that you mentioned. So my programming and my drive, I am a highly driven, high achiever. I am most likely to take things on to do them myself, to not ask for help.

Ellyn Schinke (08:53.691)

Okay.

Ellyn Schinke (09:02.064)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (09:08.02)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (09:20.354)

And I've worked a lot on that. I think all of those behaviors we know are things that lead to burnout. And it's funny that you mentioned, you know, having to be self-aware because that's how I got burnout. The second time is I thought that changing locations in my career, I was like, I'm done with training. Now I'm taking on this other job. I'll be great. Everything's, everything is perfect, you know, arrival fallacy. And so I get there, I do all the same things and

Ellyn Schinke (09:38.876)

Ugh.

Jillian Bybee (09:50.786)

Huh, perhaps there's a different way, like my own contribution to this, not just the healthcare environment, which we know has systemic things that need to be adjusted. And I work on that in a daily basis. But the me part, when I have control over it, the control I have is to say yes or no. And then sometimes you don't know exactly what you're saying yes to. And so that is me right now adding on.

Ellyn Schinke (09:51.88)

Hehehehe

Ellyn Schinke (10:15.486)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (10:18.382)

coaching certification training on top of all of my other commitments. I knew it would be busy. I intentionally did it. And I had this moment the other day when I was talking to my husband and I said, I think I'm doing too much. I can't do this. And he looked at me and he goes, yeah, as in, yes, of course you are doing too much. You're always doing too much. And so,

Hopefully that is relatable to this audience, of high achievers who are doing things. You are not safe from these behaviors just because you've learned some of them. The universe presents these opportunities for you to learn over and over again the same lesson. And so I'm currently in that season.

Ellyn Schinke (10:46.772)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (10:56.124)

percent.

Ellyn Schinke (11:06.5)

Amen. Yeah, no. And I think there's a common thing that I hear a lot in burnout, that the environment where you burned out isn't the place where you're going to recover. But I think with that comes the implication that, okay, then I need to change environments and my burnout is going to get better. And that could not be further from the truth, especially for high achievers. For some people, it is very much the job and the position. But high achievers have to recognize the fact that we have our very personalities.

drive us toward burnout the vast majority of the time. We accidentally can take on too much, constantly. I'm kind of, yeah, it's like my MO in my life is to just do too much and be like, oh, I probably shouldn't have said that, yes to that, my bad. And I've had to learn that the hard way. Like I thought leaving, you know, I left my entire career behind. And still when in entrepreneurship, I burned myself out. And as recently as last fall by doing too many speaking engagements in a short period of time. And traveling too much in a short period of time.

But it's hard to, I think, wrangle the excitement and the passion sometimes for high achievers or the people pleasing. Like we have whatever that tendency might be. It might be the perfectionism, the people pleasing. It might be that you're really passionate about what you do. That's why I always call bullshit when I hear people say passion prevents burnout. Gary Vee's very guilty of this. Like you won't burn out if you don't love it. That is BS. It is untrue. You will still burn out, perhaps because you're so excited and you're so passionate that you keep saying yes to-

Jillian Bybee (12:35.902)

Amen to that. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I hear that a lot from people too. You know, it's the old like, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. Like, everybody has a limit and everybody's a human being. And I think as a person who's a high achiever who went into helping profession, like so many people, I was like, Oh, help is for other people. Rest is for other people.

Ellyn Schinke (12:46.193)

Yeah, untrue.

Jillian Bybee (12:59.922)

and those behaviors and beliefs are not true, first of all, and second of all, directly contributed to the state that I was in. And so I just have to call myself in to remind me, and then I have a really good mirror that lives in my home with me to be like, yes, you are doing those things still.

Ellyn Schinke (13:08.905)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (13:18.452)

I need to find one of those. I need to find one of those good mirrors. Um, yeah, no, I think it's all of it's so, so true what you are saying. I'm so excited to start talking through some of these, these active stress management tactics that you use and that you teach and that have been beneficial for you. What are some of these active stress management tactics you do?

Ellyn Schinke (13:47.452)

Now I'm scared, did my internet just drop off?

Jillian Bybee (13:54.062)

Hello?

Ellyn Schinke (13:55.38)

crap.

Ellyn Schinke (14:01.783)

Are you kidding me?

Jillian Bybee (14:04.106)

Hey, are you still there?

Ellyn Schinke (14:06.084)

My internet dropped.

Can you hear me? Oh, okay good. This is what I like about Riverside. It doesn't just completely end when my internet dropped. I'm so sorry. I have fiber. This should not happen. Like, come on.

Jillian Bybee (14:11.019)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (14:19.837)

No, that's okay.

It was one of those things I'm recording somewhere where I'm not usually, and I was like, oh my gosh, is it me? But honestly, I think that's the best part. That's the best part about editing is you could just be like, whoops.

Ellyn Schinke (14:30.052)

No, that was me.

Ellyn Schinke (14:35.808)

Yup, yup. I had a friend recently who we were doing a podcast interview and she was just getting over a cold and she had like a massive like coughing attack right in the middle and she's just like, sorry, you're going to have to edit today. I was like, dude, it's fine. Get your water. Do your thing. Okay. And I'm actually going to go ahead and kind of indicate to myself that that's where I want to start. But anyways, so what I was asking is I want to start getting into these active stress management.

techniques that you were talking about. I'd love to know even like which ones you started with because I feel like sometimes, you know, I feel like we're very intuitive about what things we need first in our burnout recovery and stress recovery. So what were some of these things that you started with and how, like, what are some of the ones that you've added to your tool belt over time?

Jillian Bybee (15:04.459)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (15:22.974)

Yeah, so first I'll outline a little bit about what it is, and then we'll get into that. So, you know, I mentioned already that I think it's really important to be an active participant in our lives. And so there was this definition that found me while I was burnt out, that wellness is not a state of being, it's a state of action, which comes from the book Burnout by Amelia and Emily Nagoski.

And that really clicked something for me. I think a lot of people think wellness is like the perfect state of being unstressed, where you're sitting on a mountain somewhere and the lotus pose. And like, that sounds nice. I just don't have that life. Um, and so for, yeah. Yes, exactly. And so I think for me, it's like.

Ellyn Schinke (16:03.452)

Well, it's also a moment. Like, do we really want a moment?

Jillian Bybee (16:10.914)

how can I have this capacity in my life? How can I be stretched into those moments of stress and kind of recover from them without giving everything like I have before? And so for me, I had been going, running on adrenaline in this revved up stress response for basically my whole life. And so the place that I started is if your stress response is your

Ellyn Schinke (16:34.396)

Hmm.

Jillian Bybee (16:39.978)

turning up your volume on your stress response, your adrenaline rush, your sympathetic nervous system. Here's where we get a little bit nerdy. You think about the opposite of that, which is your parasympathetic response. That's the turn down on the volume of your nervous system. I think that's where a lot of people can start. And for me, it became, you know, getting self-aware, not just in my life, when am I feeling it, but in a day, when am I feeling stressed out?

Ellyn Schinke (16:48.19)

Hehehehe

Ellyn Schinke (16:55.892)

Hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (16:59.088)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (17:08.732)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (17:08.866)

You might imagine as someone who takes care of critically ill children that I have many stressful days and many stressful moments in my day. But it's not the whole day. There's also a lot of joy and other amazing things. And I think what I learned was that I was trying so hard to keep the bad things at bay that I wasn't letting in the good things. And so for me, it became about a lot of what you talk about, which is slowing down.

Ellyn Schinke (17:18.832)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (17:35.753)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (17:35.914)

and learning to tolerate slowing down and turning down the volume and tuning in. And so the place that I started was with breathing and with mindfulness and meditation. And...

Ellyn Schinke (17:38.761)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (17:45.189)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (17:48.608)

Did you go into it with the intention of, I am trying to target my parasympathetic nervous system here? Or was that just the realization that you needed to change your relationship with slowing down?

Jillian Bybee (17:59.534)

Um, I think what I felt at the time, it was not a conscious thing. It felt like my whole body was like vibrating and on fire and just revved up all the time. And so in some of the moments where either I had done yoga, which is funny because obviously it's helpful, but it's also the trope for wellness. Like just go to yoga. Um, but at the end, when you're taking a few moments and reflecting and really feeling it.

Ellyn Schinke (18:04.657)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (18:29.302)

when I could actually just let myself feel whatever was there and not have to achieve it in a perfect way, that started to feel nice and it started to feel like something. And so I went looking for things that could let me feel that a little bit. And I had to come at it in a way like a type A overachieving sarcastic person got there. And so I found a podcast and a

Ellyn Schinke (18:37.918)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (18:46.768)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (18:57.874)

an author who had that lens. And I'm so glad his books and his podcast found me at the time, because I was like, Dan Harris.

Ellyn Schinke (19:04.352)

Who is it? I'm very curious. Dan Harris, okay. Is he 10% happier? Is that him? Yeah, okay, I've read that.

Jillian Bybee (19:11.73)

He's yeah, yeah. Yeah, he has a podcast also called 10% happier, but there are lots of amazing mindfulness teachers on it. And, you know, some of the podcast names are like a meditation for when things suck. And like that really for me is right what I needed. Like, it just hit the right note. And, you know, now I've been meditating for eight years.

Ellyn Schinke (19:18.536)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (19:31.483)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (19:35.188)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (19:39.106)

pretty regularly.

Ellyn Schinke (19:41.556)

Dude, you're making me realize it's been like seven. Do we have very similar timelines? That's hilarious actually, yeah. Ha ha ha.

Jillian Bybee (19:48.716)

It's amazing how academics, whether it's, you know, from the basic science side or the medicine side really get you to that point. It's just like a little burnout factory and, you know, find your way to these tools.

Ellyn Schinke (19:56.748)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (20:01.372)

Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I, yeah, and I think I wanna reiterate, A, what you're saying about kind of the, the like the wellness tropes that I feel like are almost like become a joke. But I remember, and perhaps I need to talk about this more. There's so many things that I feel like are in my coaching toolkit that I still think, but I just don't talk about as much as I used to. I really love to reframe like mindfulness tactics in a more practical way for us to understand the

practical benefits, not the woo-woo benefits, because I am not a woo-woo human. I don't think I ever will be. I know I'm a Taurus, and that is about the extent of my woo-woo-ness, because I am truly a Taurus. I'm very stubborn. It is a very typical character trait of mine. But meditation, yeah, cool. Everybody says, still your mind and all of this. Honestly,

Jillian Bybee (20:44.206)

Hehehehe

Ellyn Schinke (20:52.856)

Meditation has never taught me to still my mind. What meditation taught me is that A, it was a built-in pause into my day where I didn't have any expectations of myself except to sit there, which frankly is a, like I feel like that messes with a high achiever's brain in and of itself is, oh my God, you want me to sit and do nothing for 10 minutes, what? So like that was part of it was this built-in pause, but I feel like it was also for me, it taught me that I don't have to react to every single thought I'm having.

Jillian Bybee (21:07.47)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (21:20.1)

I feel like that is the practical side of meditation for me is not necessarily don't think. It is to like literally teach yourself to observe your thoughts as if you were like we're going to have another mountaintop analogy, as if you were sitting on top of a mountain above a freeway and you're just watching the cars go by. That is what meditation taught me to do. I've stuck at it some days and I'm way better at it the other days, but just learning to not have a reaction to every single thought that comes by. Same thing with yoga.

like buck against yoga because it's so slow and I don't do slow when I'm exercising. Like it is very hard for me to do slow when I'm exercising, but yoga is something that I've learned to appreciate or just like slow stretching days in my workout routine is something that I've learned to appreciate because A, I'm tight-muscled and I need it, but B, because it is slow and I need to train myself to be more okay with slow.

Jillian Bybee (22:06.071)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (22:19.132)

because it is not an inherent part of my nature to be okay with slow. It is an inherent part of my nature to constantly feel like a lazy ass every single time I'm slow. But that is, I feel like, the practical side of these is don't react to every thought you have and learn to accept pauses and slowdowns because we cannot be, as much as we feel like we should be, we cannot be going at a million miles per hour every single day. It is not sustainable.

Jillian Bybee (22:44.674)

Absolutely. And I think, you know, the people who are out there saying

Well, I could never do that. I just can't do meditation. I can't do slowing down. I think those are the people who need it. And I was that person. I was the person who, you know, you go to a massage and I joke about wellness because massage is also one of those tropes. Like you can get a massage and it can help your body and it can release your muscles and I have a very physically demanding job so that I.

Ellyn Schinke (22:59.742)

Yep.

Jillian Bybee (23:15.798)

benefit from them. But if you go to the massage table, and your brain is just running through a list of everything that you need to get done and every way that you messed up today and every like that is not beneficial for you.

And so I think, like you said, learning to take those thoughts less seriously and learning on the third time around of the same scenario to ask yourself, is this really helpful? And I promise you the answer is always no. Like if you've gone through the same scenario three to four times and you are just replaying it in the recycle loop, it's not helpful anymore. It's just keeping you stuck. And that is really where mindfulness can be helpful. And just like you said, it's not about.

Ellyn Schinke (23:34.973)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (23:43.828)

Hehehehe

Ellyn Schinke (23:52.957)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (24:00.626)

you know, winning at mindfulness or meditation. It's not like, how good can I get at this? How much can I keep these thoughts at bay? It's how can I learn? How can I become aware? And how can I notice on that third pass through of the thought loop, that maybe I could be using the energy for something else.

Ellyn Schinke (24:03.824)

No.

Ellyn Schinke (24:19.588)

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that you said not winning, because I do feel like that. I'm an Enneagram three. I can't turn competitive Ellen off. She's always there.

Jillian Bybee (24:30.566)

So I'm always like on a self-improvement plan, a way that I can do things better. So I'm right there with you.

Ellyn Schinke (24:34.324)

Yep.

Ellyn Schinke (24:39.001)

Mm-hmm. I wish that every motivation for me didn't come from a place of competition. Even if sometimes I'm not competing with other people, sometimes I'm literally competing with myself. But it does. It's totally that thing. OK, so we've got breathing. Do you have a particular breathing technique that you love and that you utilize the most? Or is it literally just like I'm just conscious of my breath and trying to go?

Jillian Bybee (25:04.594)

question. So there's a few strategies I like to use.

Jillian Bybee (25:12.234)

Are we back? Okay. All right. All right. So there's a few breathing strategies that I like to use. And really, in order to trigger that parasympathetic nervous system, or that turn down the volume, there's one nerve we have to think about. And that's the vagus nerve, you don't have to remember the name of it. But really, any of these big breathing practices that I'll mention activate that nerve.

Ellyn Schinke (25:13.552)

I don't know. Yes, I think so. I'm so sorry.

Jillian Bybee (25:42.134)

The easiest way to do that is just to take a breath in for three seconds and then to blow out for six. Anytime that you're intentionally lengthening your exhale, you're activating that nerve, you're turning down the volume. And so that's something that people can do. Some people recommend a hold in the middle of those two things. But I think sometimes when you start to get fancy about it, it makes you do what one of the people I trained did, which was...

Ellyn Schinke (26:02.854)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (26:10.854)

nearly have a panic attack about how she was breathing the wrong way. And I was like, okay, this tool is not for you. If it is adding more stress to your life, it is the wrong tool in your toolbox. And so I've tried to just get as simple as possible of taking a breath in and then breathing out for longer than you breathe in. That activates the nerve that gives you that turn down. And if you do that for

Ellyn Schinke (26:15.25)

Hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (26:24.901)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (26:29.428)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (26:37.558)

two to three cycles, you'll notice that the way that you go in is significantly different than the relaxed feeling you have coming out of it.

Ellyn Schinke (26:46.332)

Dude, as you're talking about this, I feel myself more consciously like, breathe in, diaphragmatic breath, breathe out, long, slow exhale. Also pro tip for those of you who exhale way too rapidly because I'm that human and it's hard for me, even when I'm breathing out through my mouth or my nose, it ends up being too slow of an exhale. I do something called straw breathing where you make your mouth into the, like if you were drinking through a straw and I exhale that way. I like that you know what that is. But that's like...

If I find that I'm like, I can't get to six counts of running out of air, then I implement the strawberry thing. And that always helped me slow down my exhale. Because it's almost like I'm trying to compete of like how quickly I'm exhaling. And I'm like, stop it, Ellen. But yeah, I don't know.

Jillian Bybee (27:32.652)

Yeah, the other cool thing about straw breathing is that it can do that. And then also that extra pressure that it takes to basically push out through a little small amount, anything that increases the pressure in your chest a little bit, even for a short period of time triggers that nerve. And that's really what causes the slowdown.

Ellyn Schinke (27:53.117)

I just learned something new about strawberry thing. Thank you. I get to use that in my speaking gig next week when I talk about strawberry thing. I'll credit you. Ha ha ha.

Jillian Bybee (27:59.064)

I mean if you if you bring a nerdy physician on the podcast you're going to get some of these things

Ellyn Schinke (28:05.716)

I love it, I love it, because I'm literally speaking to more nerdy physicians next week, so they want like the data. Like I literally had to almost redesign this talk so that I literally was like, okay, this is the experiment where they tested this. And so like science, Ellen is like, oh, I get to go back into journal articles. Hey, I haven't done that in a while.

Jillian Bybee (28:09.794)

Perfect.

Jillian Bybee (28:24.01)

Yeah, you can also tell them that there's, there have been data that show that this practice called two feet, one breath, which just is noticing your feeling of your feet on the ground and then taking one breath was been validated and showed in family physicians to decrease their stress before going in to see the next patient. It's like this little moment of mindfulness that you can build into your day. And that's really what.

active stress management is for me is how can I do these little things that don't add time to my busy schedule but make a noticeable improvement and they work for me, they work for people, and luckily there are data that show that they work for the broad public and so maybe they'll love that practice too.

Ellyn Schinke (28:54.313)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (29:04.862)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (29:11.163)

Yeah, no, I like that. I like that a lot. I might have to look up how they tested the stress reduction if it was cortisol or what they looked at. But yeah, no, I like that one. Two feet, one breath. Or two feet, one breath. Is that what it was? Okay, cool. Very cool. What other active stress management tactics do you have for us?

Jillian Bybee (29:21.774)

Yep.

Jillian Bybee (29:28.898)

So my next favorite one is moving your body. And I'm really careful to say moving your body and not exercise because I think especially as a type A person who's like needs to win the exercising or has to all or nothing it like you could get into that. I know I am you also. It becomes this all or nothing thing where you won't do it because you don't quote unquote have the time in your day. And so

Ellyn Schinke (29:43.58)

Stop talking to me.

Jillian Bybee (29:56.222)

Really, if you just make it about moving your body, you can make it more accessible. And so the thing I've done is, you know, at my previously mentioned stressful job, sometimes I have to have stressful conversations with people and really I wanna bring myself into those conversations as good as possible.

Ellyn Schinke (30:09.076)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (30:15.21)

because it's the right thing for me, and it's certainly the right thing for the parents whose children I'm taking care of. And so often you'll find me in the basement of the hospital with my headphones in listening to this playlist that makes you wanna dance, just walking around for five minutes or walking up and down the stairs for five minutes. And so it's the endorphins that get released by movement. And then also it's the sort of effervescent, uplifting quality of the music is like a one-two punch for me. And...

Ellyn Schinke (30:42.557)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian Bybee (30:44.534)

the way I can go from sort of like not in a great spot to a much better headspace really helps me get into those conversations. And honestly, I'll go back on a walk for three to five minutes after one of those conversations. And I think if people out there saying, well, I don't have three to five minutes, I guess I can't help you is what I always say because we all have three to five minutes somewhere. And if you just have to find out what works for you.

Ellyn Schinke (30:50.996)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (31:00.446)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (31:08.603)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (31:14.314)

You know, music is not for everybody, but I think for me, I know that the process of music plus moving my body gets me into a much better spot. And it really allows me to transition from one thing to the next.

Ellyn Schinke (31:21.597)

Thank you.

Ellyn Schinke (31:27.652)

100%. I literally, and I will share this in the show notes if anybody wants it, I have a playlist as well that I literally called Can't Not Dance to this shit because that is what it was. It was a playlist of songs that every time I listen to them, I'm just like dancing around with it. I couldn't contain myself, so that's what I named the playlist. When I need a pick me up, that is what I listen to. Yeah, I think it is about what I always say for a lot of my clients.

is because yeah, a lot of my clients, we bond because they're me. They think exactly like I do. I had one client in particular who was just like, well, I want to do this very structured, very perfectionistic, very all or nothing workout plan. This is my self-care, Ellen. We came back a week later. I was like, how's that going? She's like, yeah, I maybe did one day of that. I was like, okay, how do you feel about that? She's like, I'm pissed. I'm very mad at myself. We ended up having a conversation because this is something I've realized for myself as well.

I needed to redefine what movement looked like for me. And I am currently in a state where honestly, it's been a while since I've been to the gym because that's not what I'm prioritizing right now. I am prioritizing walking. I am prioritizing getting out of my apartment and going on little walks, even if it's only like a 10 to 20 minute walk or walking to the grocery store and back. Like I've had to redefine what that looks like, even if it's just stretching in this, I live in a 500 square foot studio. This is like,

This spot back here is literally the only space I have to work out. Um, so like even if it's me on the floor with my yoga mat, Matt, stretching in that space, that counts as movement for me. And I've had to redefine what that looks like. Am I, you know, trying to work back up to that as well as going to the gym? Absolutely. Because I'm probably always going to have that sort of all or nothing mentality, but we've got to redefine what counts as movement and going to a gym.

is not the only thing that counts as movement. As soon as you said, I'm very intentional about saying movement and not exercise, I was like, I know where she's going with this. Cause yeah, it does not have to be going to a gym or going on a run or like it's sometimes it's honestly just so beneficial just to move your body in whatever capacity it looks like. And here's a pro tip for people who have standing desks and walking pads, but never use them because they can't work and walk at the same time. I have found I can't do stuff like this.

Ellyn Schinke (33:43.408)

I can't do coaching calls. I can't do stuff where it's like an intensive amount of typing even while I'm at my standing desk walking. But if I am on a call where I'm listening, it's a team call that I'm not leading or it's a training that I'm just watching, that's when I bust out the walking pad and that's when I walk while I work. Sometimes it's not about finding the three to five minutes external to everything else that's on your plate, though that's important. Sometimes it's just trying to incorporate a little bit of movement into what you're already doing.

Jillian Bybee (34:13.866)

Yeah, I think that's so important. And I think finding those times where you can also ask for what you need, we have, you know, I have the benefit of working with a bunch of people who talk about wellness. And so when I say, I'm going to listen to this meeting from my earbuds and go outside and walk around, they say, great. And if we happen to be in the same place, some of us do that together. But I think that is, you know, we know from.

a lot of data that the workplace, the way it is, especially virtually and back-to-back meetings is not helpful for our bodies. But we also know from really cool data that taking five minutes, an hour, starts to prevent some of the things that happen to your body from sitting all the time. And so even just taking those regular breaks and then maybe one big break if you're able to can be really helpful. But I think it's really about...

Ellyn Schinke (34:46.002)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (34:52.71)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (34:58.194)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (35:06.483)

Yeah.

Jillian Bybee (35:08.462)

claiming what we can and then finding that if you do these things in your day, you're not as exhausted at the end of your day because you didn't completely disregard your own needs. And maybe you do have the energy to go to the gym at the end of the day.

Ellyn Schinke (35:22.012)

Exactly. You're not as exhausted and you're not as stiff. Like honestly, at the five minutes start of every single meeting where people are BSing and you haven't even gotten into the agenda yet, just put on your headphones and take that. Just go walk. And if somebody asks, why is your camera not on? Be like, oh, I'm getting a little walk in before we kick into the agenda.

Jillian Bybee (35:42.77)

Yeah, I love that. And I think that, you know, you can't do that with every meeting, obviously, it's unrealistic to say every time I will do this. But I think there are so many ways that we hold ourselves back with the beliefs that we have and the things that we think other people will think about us. Oh my gosh, you're a human, you have needs, you need to go to the bathroom, you need to walk and stretch. How dare you do that? Like, like,

Ellyn Schinke (35:51.546)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (36:06.012)

You have to feed yourself? What?

Jillian Bybee (36:09.79)

And what I found is that as you start to show up as a full human being for other people, they're like, oh, I have the permission to be the full human being. Okay. And then now, I guess for better or worse, I have a bunch of people at work who are like, hey, I heard you've had a really stressful time. Have you been taking care of yourself? Like I get these text messages that, yeah, it's like a call in. Yeah, how dare you? And also thank you.

Ellyn Schinke (36:31.476)

I mean, that's good, but also it's just like, woo. That's some accountability I didn't know I asked for here. OK.

Jillian Bybee (36:40.406)

Yep.

Ellyn Schinke (36:41.768)

That's really funny. That is really funny. Yeah, I used to be a, actually, this is very unrelated. And if you have more active stress management tactics that you wanna talk about, we can absolutely talk about them. But you're a leader in your organization. And I feel like this is a teeny bit off of what we originally said we were gonna talk about. But I would be very, very curious to know, how do you model these things to the people you lead?

Jillian Bybee (36:55.596)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (37:09.82)

Because I do, for better or for worse, even though it's not necessarily the people I'm trying, aiming to work with, I work with a lot of corporate clients. And frankly, I have a lot of former clients that are in healthcare, and I still get hired to speak by a number of healthcare organizations. And I can give the best insight I can from my time managing, but I have definitely a unique lens that I come from when I talk about leadership and management, because I worked in a fully remote company. So all I can really do is model in

you know, my boundaries in terms of when I was available and model in terms of, you know, just what I tell the people that I work with. But how do you model this and how do you support this and the people that you lead when you're kind of with them in person and on the ground with them? Like, what tips would you have in regard to that?

Jillian Bybee (37:57.15)

Oh man, that could be a whole podcast of its own. I love this topic.

Ellyn Schinke (37:59.912)

And I was like, this might open a Pandora's box, but I feel like it's important.

Jillian Bybee (38:05.15)

Absolutely. So from an individual perspective, I think, you know, I make it really clear, like I said earlier, that there are work related things that directly contribute. Like they're not individual failings. There are EHR hours, reimbursement, like all of these things that are very real.

And so I make sure when I go into rooms of leaders, my level or higher, that we're talking about the data of what those things are, how the corporation can impact them, how high level leaders need to be taking ownership, which is why it's exciting that we're starting to get asked back to more leadership and C-suite level things, because those are the conversations we need to be having. I think as a leader of people that I'm leading,

I model, just like you're saying, these behaviors that are important. So when I go to a conference, like I went to last week, my out of office says, I am at a conference, my response will be delayed. You will hear back from me on this date. And there is a caveat for people because I take care of some of the emergent responses for trainees who are struggling. That

The people internal to the organization get my cell phone number and they can feel free to text me and I tell you one person has ever done that and it was for a very real emergency. Like people hold the boundary and don't text me things they don't need to be texting me. But otherwise other people understand I'm not going to get back to you while I'm at this conference. And Mm hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (39:37.944)

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's about setting the expectation in your out of office responder. If you don't plan to get back to people until you're back, don't say my responses will be limited or something like that. That implies that you're going to get back to them, but maybe in a couple hours later. I think it's really important to say, I say I will not be checking my email during this time. I will say that. You're not hearing from me, period, end of story. So it's almost like...

Use that language if that's your intention. Don't set the expectation that you're going to get back to them in 12 hours instead of two when your plan is to literally not get back to them for another week. I think that's important too.

Jillian Bybee (40:18.294)

Yeah, I think that's so important. And I talked to a lot of physicians and physician leaders who start to get panic attacks, if the no checking the email thing. And so I often say, you can use your, your out of office as a cover. I won't get back to you until this date and you can still look at it. If it makes you feel better, I think to know what you're coming back to. And often I do, I looked at my email last week and

know, once a day thought, okay, what's here? Like, what will be on the list for me when I come back into the office on Monday? And that's what works for me. But I completely recommend exactly what you said, which is not the traditional American like, oh, I'm having surgery today, and I should be out of anesthesia by about three o'clock. And I could probably get back to you by seven or so. And like, we all know, no, don't do that.

Ellyn Schinke (40:47.56)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (40:52.596)

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (41:08.004)

No, you won't. You're going to be so drugged up.

Jillian Bybee (41:12.69)

Nobody needs that for you. And like, I just laugh because I work in a place with actual emergencies, like very real human life emergencies. And so it's shown me there are not that many, there are not that many emergencies out there. And

Ellyn Schinke (41:14.501)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (41:26.353)

No.

Ugh, listen to her when she's saying this, people. She's talking about life or death scenarios and still saying there's not that many emergencies. So I'm sorry, your coaching client, it's probably not an emergency. Your marketing client, your design client, whatever kind of industry you're in, it's probably not an emergency if Jillian is literally telling us, I work in life or death scenarios and there's really not a lot of emergencies.

Jillian Bybee (41:56.398)

All right, don't come for me everybody, but honestly, I have to remind myself of this. And so I give you permission to remind yourself too, that like there are not that many. And that is not how it feels in the moment. And that is why these breath practices, the self-awareness, the taking a brief break, that's why we do these things. It's to make you say, hey, body who feels revved up just as if a lion is chasing across the savanna coming to get us.

Ellyn Schinke (42:04.657)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (42:08.124)

Yeah.

No.

Jillian Bybee (42:26.018)

Like, just take a pause, not an emergency. What would be the way that I could respond to this rather than react to it? And does this need my attention right now? That's all I'm asking for. And I'm saying that to you just as much as I'm saying it to me, because my body still does the same thing when it gets an email from my boss. It's like, you know, unscheduled, like, oh no.

Ellyn Schinke (42:28.392)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ellyn Schinke (42:34.204)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (42:38.621)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (42:43.396)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (42:52.262)

I'm going to go.

Jillian Bybee (42:52.65)

Am I, oh, have a meeting about something, okay, not an emergency, but sometimes you still get revved up and so finding ways to turn down.

Ellyn Schinke (42:57.948)

Yeah. Yeah, and I like that you used the lion. Yeah, the lion example I think is so good because that's exactly what I was thinking is. We have to remember that our biology has not caught up to our life, our modern lifestyle. Our biology was literally thousands of years of a literal survival mode of getting chased by a tiger or getting attacked by whatever.

whatever thing, our biology gets, and our biology still gets triggered in that way because our biology does not differentiate between something that's physically threatening, like literally a threat to your life, and something that is psychologically threatening. Our biology doesn't differentiate, and I think we have to remember that when it comes to, like your body's gonna respond to everything that same way, even if it's an email about a meeting that you're gonna have later in the week, absolutely. Ah, love that.

Jillian Bybee (43:49.524)

Yeah.

Ellyn Schinke (43:51.056)

I'm so glad we have another podcast later this week because you and I are gonna have more to talk about then. But for now, how do you support people? Where can people find you? If people really liked your vibe and your energy and they're looking for the kind of support you provide or just even looking for your insights and do you do consultations for like other healthcare kind of environments? Like, do you do that kind of work? Because I feel like there's a lot of people who are probably gonna be like, I need her.

Jillian Bybee (43:56.642)

Can't wait.

Jillian Bybee (44:18.302)

So I am starting that work. I have the most experience speaking. So I've spoken nationally on active stress management and how to do team-based strategies for fulfillment. So the best way to get ahold of me is over on my website, which is Jillianbybmd.com. And then also, perfect. And then I'm also over on Instagram, probably the most at Life and Pick You, which will also be linked in the show notes, I'm sure.

Ellyn Schinke (44:36.572)

and I'll have all the links in the show notes everybody.

Jillian Bybee (44:48.378)

Um, and then I write a newsletter on Substack and have my own podcast where I'm so excited to interview you again so we can talk more. Um, but yeah, I am happy to talk to anybody about potential opportunities. I think what I know is that I'm just a human and you are too muddling through this thing and, um, really just showing people it out loud, and I think that's really resonated with people. Um, and so if you want to connect with me, feel free.

Ellyn Schinke (45:17.296)

100%. Thank you so much for coming, for being here. I'm so excited to pay it forward and get interviewed by you on Wednesday. And yeah, everybody links are in the show notes. If you need any support, if you have any follow-up questions, reach out to me, reach out to Jillian. We're happy to answer. And I will see you all next time. Bye.

Jillian Bybee (45:36.59)

Bye.