#122 - Get Organized + Ditch Burnout with guest host Monica Lin
Summary
In this episode, I invite professional organizer turned organization coach Monica Lin of "Make Room by Monica" to talk about the burnout side of orgnization and how we getting organized can help and harm our burnout!
For show notes, head to coachellyn.com/podcast and, of course, if you have any questions or want to connect, head on over to @coachellyn on Instagram.
ACTION STEPS:
Some of the questions we answer include:
You’ve described burnout as a spectrum. What do you mean by that?
-Sometimes, it’s hard to identify or name a condition or feeling if you don’t know what to be looking for. What does burnout look like?
How does our environment effect our wellness?
How does burnout affect our ability to be organized? And conversely, how can organization support our burnout recovery?
What advice do you have for someone feels too burnt out to change? What do you say to someone who fears it would require more energy to breakthrough the burnout than stay on the hamster wheel they’re currently on?
RESOURCES IN THIS EPISODE:
My BRAND NEW “Take Back Your Life Membership” - here
MORE ABOUT MONICA:
Monica Lin is a professional organizer. She used to find herself going into and out of client's homes helping them organize their lives like a regular, West-coast Marie Kondo. Now, she's pivoting to educating people like her former clients on how they can not only organize, but educate them on how to sustainably "make room" in their life and how this will help them not only live better but feel better!
Transcript for this episode:
Ellyn (00:00):
Hey friend. And welcome back to the take back your life podcast. I know it's been a while since I've been on here, things have been crazy between my day job. I just got a promotion at my day. Job things have been billowing up in my business, but I don't want to neglect you guys. I want to make sure I'm still giving you really, really valuable content. And that's why I had an idea to do things a little bit differently than what I typically do in this podcast. It has been awhile since I've done something like this way back. And I think it was 2019, fall 2019. I used audio from an interview that I'd done with a friend of mine. We talked about a lot of incredible things that with an interview with Elena Joy Thurston of the pride and joy foundation, and I'm doing something similar today, I was able to sit down with, um, Monica Lin from make room by Monica. And we talked all about burnout, but also from the perspective of an organization and how being a more organized person or utilizing certain mindset tricks and psychology tricks can help you overcome your burnout and how it can also on the flip side, be a detriment to your burnout.
Ellyn (02:11):
And we're going to talk all about that today. So I'm stealing some audio from that conversation that her and I had, and I cannot wait for us to dive in, but before we do, I want to tell you a little bit about who's doing the interviewing. Monica Lin is a professional organizer. She used to find yourself going into and out of client's homes, helping them organize their lives like a regular west coast Marie Kondo, which is pretty freaking cool. Since COVID hit, she's pivoted to educating people like her former clients on how they can not only organize, but educate them on how to sustainably make room in their life and how this will help them not only live better, but feel better.
Ellyn (02:46):
Monica and I connected on Instagram. And since we did, I actually invited her to be our first guest speaker inside of the take back your life membership. If you are listening to this right, as it's being released on March 16th, well, then you can join this membership for $97 a month and get in on Monica is talk that she's doing this evening. So if you are listening to this ASAP, get in on that. It is happening inside of the take back your life membership. And I would freaking love to have you in there anyway, but Monica is going to be interviewing me talking about the burnout side of organization, which is a really, really fascinating conversation. So with that, let's get into it.
Ellyn (03:23):
I feel like now more than ever, um, I'm hearing so many people say that they just feel like more if you asked to them and they can possibly give and, um, that's leading to burnout and we don't often even dare to label it. And so I just, I need to pick your brain on this.
Ellyn (03:44):
Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's interesting. Even the other day, my, my boyfriend tagged me in something on LinkedIn saying how employee burnout is on the rise right now because you know, everybody, keeps waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to work from home and this pandemic and all of these changes that have happened to our work and our lives. We're looking for the light at the end of the tunnel. And it just keeps getting pushed further and further out. So burnout is real. I know, I know burnout is real people and if you are feeling it, you're so not alone.
Monica (04:17):
Okay. So let's talk about this. You have described burnout as being spectrum. What does that mean?
Ellyn (04:24):
Basically what that means to me is this. So, um, burnout is essentially something where you can have a very mild burnout where you can have something that's very, very severe. It's not a light switch. That's kind of the analogy I use is you have a light switch and you have a dimmer switch for lights in your house, right? You have one or the other and burnout is not a light switch. It's not something that turns on and off. It's something that accumulates over time. So when that burnout gets really, really severe it's because you have turned up that dimmer over time and that severe burnout is the one that's really, really hard to fix. Mild burnout you can maybe fix with a few lifestyle changes and better boundaries. Severe burnout: it's going to take a lot more, but if you don't fix it, that's when you veer into break down and break down can be very, very messy.
Monica (05:16):
And I think bold stance that you take when you say that burnout is a choice.
Ellyn (05:24):
I said that I was just like, "this is going to piss some people off," but I do really feel like burnout is a choice, especially for that high achiever mentality. A lot of us are people pleasers or recovering people, pleasers we're perfectionists. And a lot of the things that are burning ourselves out, they are self-inflicted. It is us saying yes to too much taking too much on trying to be too much to other people. I love the mentality. I actually just got back from a trip to Vegas. Um, and I love them airplane mentality. Like every time I get on an airplane, now I pay so much more attention. When they say, you need to put your oxygen mask on before you put your, put the mask on others, you know, we're all familiar with that analogy. And the same thing applies to our life.
Ellyn (06:10):
Because if you don't, if you make the choice to help someone else before you help yourself, you are not only putting yourself at a disadvantage, you are pouring from an empty cup, but you're not giving the best of yourself to whoever you're pouring into. So that's what I mean when I say burnout is a choice. We are choosing to take things, things on, we are choosing to not say, no, even though we know we should. And some of the time we're choosing the very behaviors and routines and patterns that are leading to our burnout. And I like that stance because I personally find it to be so much more empowering then" I am burned out" as opposed to "I am burning myself out. I think it's such an empowering change of mindset. And even though it might put people on the defensive at first, I actually do feel like that is a better way to think about burnout.
Monica (07:02):
Yeah, it is empowering. It is, um, really important to switch from that passive to that active voice. And to recognize that you, you can be an agent of change in your own life. You can create a life, the balance that you need to thrive. Um, okay. So how do we recognize when we are running low on oxygen? How do we recognize when we need to put the mask on? What does burnout look like?
Ellyn (07:32):
Okay, well, the first thing I'm actually going to share my screen really quickly, and I'm glad we prepped for this. Cause these are the ones that I really wanted to touch on. Um, there are, I'm going to share my screen. We're going to do the full blown thing here. Um, there are four main types of burnout. There is boredom burnout, which is kind of the fulfillment side of burnout. If you're not fulfilled by the work you're doing and you don't feel challenged by the work you're doing, especially as a high achiever or somebody, who's very type a, you're going to be your end of that boredom burnout. It's not going to feel good. There's also overwhelmed burnout, which is the productivity side you are taking on too much. And you're overwhelmed by it. Like you, you, uh, commended me at the beginning of the, our call today for taking a bit of a setback from my typical Instagram presence.
Ellyn (08:15):
And that's because I'm overwhelmed this week and I know it, and I know what to look for. And we'll talk about the signs in just a second, but then there's also the physical side, like that lack of energy. Um, that lack of like mental clarity, a lot of that is the physical component. And then you also have the emotional side, which I distinguished this as the self-care side, because a lot of the emotional type of burnout we see is a lack of a lack of, um, awareness. It can be a lack of, you know, just engagement in your life. Um, the things there are a lot of times feeling jaded by what's happening in your life. So actually let's just go straight into the science because a, of these overlap with those four types. So these are some of the really, really common science, particularly in high achievers.
Ellyn (09:03):
First of all, to look for, it's very, very physical. It's that drained, exhausted feeling. It's when you hit a wall at the end of your day, and you just have nothing left to give another thing to look for with the drained and exhausted is, and this happens to my boyfriend. Um, he'll be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. And then he will suddenly sleep for 12 hours and be like, oh, I don't know why I did that. So that's another thing to look for in that whole feeling drained and exhausted from the emotional side feelings of apathy and disinterest. If you're somebody who's usually highly engaged in the work that you're doing, love your job, love what you do, whether you are in corporate or you have a business or whatever perspective we're looking at. And suddenly you feel yourself being very checked out that could be a big contributor or a sign of burnout, um, numbing more with whatever your, your go-to numbing is. You know, maybe it's candy, maybe that one glass of wine at the end of the day turns into more than one glass of wine at the end of the day. Or you're just bingeing Netflix, way more than you typically are. That could be a sign of burnout, particularly emotional burnout planning, an escape, or a getaway, which I was literally doing. I posted it on Instagram yesterday, how much I wanted to be in Hawaii instead of working, because I was feeling it this week, I'm constantly feeling overwhelmed. And then from the physical side, if you see yourself getting sick more frequently, or you just feel like maybe you have a cold that you can't shake or a cough that you can't shake. That's also a really good sign
Monica (10:36):
It may not be COVID and maybe burnout.
Ellyn (10:39):
Yeah, actually. Yeah. Not everything. That's the microbiologist background in me is not everything is COVID sometimes it's just, you're not taking care of yourself.
Monica (10:49):
Yeah. Wow. Um, and I think a lot of the things aren't obvious.
Ellyn (10:56):
A lot of it flies under the radar.
Monica (10:58):
It doesn't feel like an obvious sign of burnout. It just seems like something that you're supposed to do. And you're supposed to treat yourself to once a year, three times a year. I think,
Ellyn (11:10):
I think the big thing to look for there too, is if it becomes a pattern, if it becomes a, you know, I have a period of every three months where suddenly I get into this head space where I'm very apathetic and disinterested, that could be your burnout cycle because it is a cycle that can repeat when you're not being proactive about taking care of it and managing it. So if you see those things repeat pretty good sign that you're dealing with some sort of a burnout cycle that you're probably gonna want to intervene on.
Monica (11:37):
That's interesting. Um, so, you know, it's interesting to think about this planning of vacation, this escape to another destination. And we are living in times when we really, even a lot of us are pretty, pretty tied down, right? Grounded. We can't travel as much. Um, so how does our immediate environment play into this?
Ellyn (12:01):
Ooh, uh, definitely. I feel like the immediate environment. I actually, this is where the NLP kind of comes in because one of my favorite things about NLP is what they called the logical levels of change. And the base of that pyramid, it's like a pyramid of five different steps. The base of that pyramid is environment. And basically what that is kind of saying is if you change your environment, it's going to help you reinforce change and all these other parts of your life and your behaviors and your belief and your purpose. And I feel like it's the exact same way with burnout. If you think of, you know, the moments when you walk into a room and it just like, I feel like we've all had this, you walk into a room that's not as organized as you want it to be. The kind of maybe looks like a bomb has exploded parents.
Ellyn (12:47):
I'm sure you deal with this a lot more than me. I don't have kids, but you have that kind of thing hit you in the face of, oh my God, this room's a mess. And then it starts spiraling to my life's a mess. I'm so not put together. That's kind of the way in which your environment impacts your wellness. Cause your environment can be a trigger for larger problems that are going on or on the opposite side, your environment can be an almost escape. Like if you had a one spot in your house that was your little sanctuary. So you always kept it organized. That could be the place you go, where the overwhelm gets to reel in the rest of your life. So I really do think environment can be very, very impactful on the, on the stress side as well as on the calm side, particularly in COVID in the pandemic.
Ellyn (13:44):
Yeah. I'm so glad that you said that. Cause I mean, even before the pandemic, a lot of the clients that I w would work with, um, you know, it, it was clear to me that there was, there was something very unmanageable, um, about their, their homes. And that's why they had to call in an expert. Um, does burnout affect our ability to be organized? Yes. Yes.
Ellyn (14:14):
I would say it does because I mean, when you look at your house - it's probably why they called in an expert -when you look at your house and things feel unmanageable and feel, things feel like you're never going to get it under control, doing that yourself, particularly when you're already stressed, you're already burned out. You're already overwhelmed. It feels like another to-do list item. And the last thing we need, especially from that overwhelm side of burnout is another to-do list item. So when you're overwhelmed, that is like massively, massively triggering. I can just add to whatever stress and burnout you're already. No, from like the other side of that. Yes, it can be triggering, but it can also really, really support bouncing back from burnout. And it's kind of the example I gave a second ago. If you have that one calm space in your environment, then you, um, it might give you that escape you need from the rest of your life.
Ellyn (15:16):
And that can be tremendously helpful when you're burned out. Like it almost kind of gives you like, even if we're talking about just organizing a space, like maybe you don't have that space, but you want it. The great thing about doing that. It gives you a small win. If you like, just say, "I'm gonna organize my desk" since so many of us are sitting, I'm sitting at my desk right now. So many of us are spending so much time at our desks. And we just say, I'm going to organize this one space that can give you a small win towards your burnout toward your organization that pushes you forward. And that one little moment of victory is exactly what we need to get our motivation, going to tackle burnout and tackle stress. And the other parts of our lives. One of my favorite old analogies, this was like pre burnout. Ellen coaching is that momentum is motivating. Like if you think about that textbook analogy of a ball rolling down a hill or a snowball rolling down a hill. That snowball is building as it rolls, that's exactly how motivation and momentum works. So if you can give that one little organizational win, that can be what gets your snowball rolling and helps you tackle burnout in all of these other parts of your life.
Monica (16:31):
Yes. Small, small steps are what it takes to build sustainable change. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, would you offer any other suggestions for how we can take that first small step? I feel like a lot of people, um, you know, their, their main objective is just too tired at the end of the day. It almost feels like it would require less energy to just keep up this hamster wheel. Like I'm used to it, right. It's at least I know what I have to deal with as opposed to, um, I don't know if, if the steps I'm making towards, uh, a change in my life are going to work, right. I don't want to invest in something that's that's not going to work. What would you say to someone who has had objection?
Ellyn (17:28):
I totally get that objection. It's why I said just a second ago. It does. It feels like another to-do list task. And when you're tired, this is the last thing you want to do. It's but ultimately I think the big thing here is it's an instant versus delayed gratification thing. This was probably one of the biggest boundaries to a habit change, just overarchingly because so many habits. And so many things that we're implementing, particularly from the perspective of burnout, like I'll acknowledge that we'll be transparent about that are things that you may not get an instant benefit from. It's the other things, or it's the delayed gratification. And those delayed benefits that a lot of changes we make in burnout are really giving us. And I get how hard that can be. It's one of the biggest struggles I have to talk about with clients. The good thing is, particularly from the perspective of organization is talk about something that helps your burnout and you actually do get instant gratification from like, there's no delay from seeing the benefit of cleaning up your desk.
Ellyn (18:38):
There's no delay of right before our call, guess what I did? I put all of the dishes that were in my sink, in the dishwasher, so I can run it later. That is an instant hit of, "yes, I've done something productive. Yes. I've taken something off my to-do list." It's part of the reason actually, why often we procrastinate by tidying up. I'm so guilty of that. If I have a larger project to work on that, I'm not a hundred percent in the headspace to work on. I'll find something to tidy up. I'll fold the blankets on my couch or I'll put away dishes like I just did. So it's actually something that I actually think the benefit of organization and stuff like that. If it's something you can leverage when you're burned out and don't really have that headspace to put into a larger project, you can use it to organize. So I actually think that's kind of a way to, to think about it of, oh, this is actually working with my psychology and my totally human nature, desire to procrastinate. If you can almost like work with that part of your brain, instead of feeling like you're working against it.
Monica (19:45):
It's almost like hacking your brain, right. You're like, I'm going to procrastinate anyway. So let me procrastinate productively.
Ellyn (19:53):
Exactly! I've literally talked about productive procrastination in so many ways, like planning as a procrastination tool. I feel like a lot of people do that who are high achievers organizing as a procrastination tool is actually something that I'm a big fan of. And then ...
Monica (20:08):
You just feel fantastic afterwards. You know, I was really like, I really like right now feels like I, I did a good thing.
Ellyn (20:19):
Exactly! That dopamine hit.
Monica (20:21):
Yeah. Yeah. You can be really proud of yourself. It's not the immediate results. So as far as burnout of goes, what are ways that we can reclaim our energy or restore our energy levels? Absolutely. And it's, and I love what you said, reclaim and restore it because it really is just about getting hard.
Ellyn (20:44):
But favorite ways talk about this is the nine types of rest. And I'm gonna go ahead and share my screen again and full transparency. This is from the nine types co is actually based around the Enneagram, the nine types of the Enneagram. But I definitely feel like there's a place for all of this in our lives. There's... We can benefit from each of these different types of rest, even if we're not that Enneagram type. Um, but the first type of rest is time away. And I think sometimes we can overcomplicate time away. Time away does not need to be a full blown vacation to Hawaii. It can just be a vacation like my boyfriend and I have literally talked about what if we spent a weekend on bash long island, which I kid you not as a 15 minute ferry ride across the water from right where I live. So it could be if vacation where it could be just taking some space and some time off, um, not helping. It's another type of rest, like give yourself permission to just take care of yourself
Ellyn (21:48):
For other people, this is big for my people who identify as people pleasers, um, unproductivity. This is the one that is geared toward people who are Enneagram type three high achievers is we often feel the need to be productive in everything that we do. Not everything needs to be a to-do list item. We can just purely do something for joy and creativity. That's what this one is. At and nature is to just get outside, especially if you're missing meaning and creativity, that is going to be huge piece of rest and recovery for you solitude. I'm an introvert contrary to what you see on your screen. I love me some alone time. My mug says home body.
Monica (22:34):
This is the mug that I spotted on your Instagram feed. And I was like, that woman knows my heart. So I reached out to you.
Ellyn (22:44):
So this probably yours: solitude. Give yourself some you time. That's just purely to recharge. And that is free of demands. My morning routine, I protect that with my life, from my boyfriend, even. And I am like, "No no no you don't. This is my time. Like I'm not texting you. You are not out here on the couch with me. I am by myself when I am in solitude." Um, so that's that one, uh, break from responsibility. I'm not even going to go any deeper into because that's pretty freaking self explanatory, stopping responsible for everything. And just take a break. I love me a day with no plans. I'm actually kind of getting ahead of myself, but that's kind of how I think of a break from responsibility.
Ellyn (23:30):
Stillness, just stop moving, stop moving and doing things and to do lifting. I love meditation for this because it's one of the few times in my day where it forces my brain to be still. So I love meditation for stillness.
Monica (23:51):
I have been, you know, trying to be really good about my meditation practice for the past few months. And one thing that I noticed with that, you know, even though I set aside this time for meditation, my brain was still constantly, you know, running those to-do lists while Tamara Levitt on the calm app was trying to me and call me and ground me. And, um, and one thing that I found to be really, really game-changing when it came to, um, you know, going deeper into my meds, my meditation was to actually externalize all those thoughts before going into the meditation. So like write out all the things that are on your mind so that you can just dump it all out before, before, um, engaging in this practice, that's supposed to be restful.
Ellyn (24:47):
I actually even do some, I do something similar to that, but I do something as well where sometimes you have a thought come up during meditation that you hadn't had before. And it's an important thing that you need to remember or to do list item or person you need to contact early on. When I was meditating, I would just keep a little notebook next to my meditation space. So if stuff like that came up, instead of trying to fight it and force it back down out of my brain, I would just connect for two seconds, write it down and go back to meditating. And I found that incredibly helpful instead of just trying to fight the things that came up to just kind of go with it, like escape for two seconds and then come back in which some meditation teachers might not like, but honestly it worked so well.
Monica (25:31):
Yeah. I it's, you know, giving yourself permission, right. To just acknowledge that you're human thoughts are gonna come up, um, and to, to address them quickly, um, that doesn't, that doesn't make you a loser meditator. Exactly.
Ellyn (25:52):
So whoever put it out there that said meditation is about, you know, not thinking has really screwed a lot of people over because I think it's a lot less about, it's not about not thinking. I think it's more about not being reactive to your thoughts.
Monica (26:05):
Yeah. That person is going to come for you! What'd you say?
Ellyn (26:15):
The last two: just have a safe space. Try to find whether it's a person or a place where you feel like you can let your guard down. This actually might be art and nature for you. When I was in college, I actually had a spot that I was just kind of like my special place and when I needed to escape, I would just go there and I would just sit on this little bench by the water and it was wonderful. Um, and then lastly, alone time at home, as I already said this, but I relish a day with no plans. I am stoked for this weekend. I have no plans this weekend and it is going to be amazing. So that may be, that's what you need, but these are the nine types of breasts. And as I said at the bottom, it's originally meant for the Enneagram, but I honestly think there's so much power to it.
Monica (27:00):
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that's so, so enlightening. And can you let us know how people can stay in contact with you and work with you? Um, I just, you know, I love all the science that you bring.
Ellyn (27:17):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, @coachellyn everywhere. I'm @coachellyn, E L L Y N. For those of you, if it's, you know, read the title, I'm sure my name's in the title. Um, but E L L Y N I'm @coachellyn on Instagram and Instagram is my happy place. Like we talked earlier about the whole, you might be planning an escape. I feel like Instagram is where I escape. I love it. And watching my Instagram stories is a great way to just learn my personality and see if it's like, oh, I will vibe with this person or no, this person will irritate the hell out of me. Um, you'll find out on my Instagram stories. Um, coachellyn.com Is my website and I've got tons of free resources, podcasts, blog, posts, um, a lot of stuff there. Um, and then where else would be, I mean, I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn as well, but Instagram and my website are probably the two best places.
Ellyn (28:11):
And actually, could I say one more thing? I just realized I have one more little thing today. Ha I don't know if that messes up your, your video or anything, but, um, I think a big thing that we need to think about when it comes to burnout and I realized, I didn't say this in the last question I wanted to make sure I throw it out there is it's about the quality of your life and we can totally accept our burnout and our stress and our low energy. But we, I know all of us want to have a high quality of life. And when I was burned out in graduate school, I realized that I looked at how I was spending my time. And I had that profound moment of is this all there is like, aren't I capable of so much more than this. And it was textbook achievement without fulfillment. And I think why so many of us feel this ss because we've just kind of gotten to a point where we're just a little just disenchanted or jaded by our lives. And that's emotional burnout right there. And I think upon realizing that it empowers you to make the changes that you need to, and those changes might take energy and they might be highly uncomfortable, but it's going to make the quality of your life so much better. And that just loops back to that whole thing of burnout is a choice. You can have that realization, which I feel like so many of us have, and she was not to do differently, or you can have that realization and choose to do different either way. It's a choice. So it's all just about what choice you're willing to make.
Monica (29:42):
Well, thank you so much for encouraging us to choose wisely and choose for our highest self. Thanks again, this has been another episode of best calm little corner, check out coachellyn.com And connect.
